With "Friendship" and "The Rehearsal," today's media representations of male friendship and sense of belonging are both labelled comedies. Why, then, are they so painful to watch?
Unfortunately for male friendships and loneliness there is little more off-putting than the man with poor social skills, and I use the term social skills to refer to their ability to be a friend to men or women. Lots of men have poor social skills with women, but do just fine as friends to other men. Men who lack the skills with either (the cringy, often desperate guys), are the ones everyone wants to stay away from. I don't know, maybe it's adaptive evolution that we are most turned off by the male social maladapt.
It's never a permanent sentence of course. Social skills are SKILLS. They are learned! But with our society increasingly losing its social capital, and more of our lives dominated by isolationist activities like video content, video games, or doom scrolling the number of men we're producing with no social skills keeps rising, and the opportunities they have to practice and develop good social skills is falling.
I've heard that "Women need a reason to have sex. Men just need an opportunity." I feel it's the inverse for friendship.
I organize a sports meetup, and something that's been happening recently is that some women will just sit and chat while watching the games (the meetup is majority male). They say it's an important social outlet. Reminds me of church where the attendance is largely older women who want community (amongst other reasons). Also, I've heard from a few (not many!) women in my life that they "could never live alone". I've never heard that from a guy.
"Men need a reason to to have friendship. Women just need an opportunity." 🤷♂️
Yes, men need an activity. Women can just talk on the phone, but with men there needs to be some pretense, even if it's just going to a bar. Watching sports is a good pretense.
I'd love more comedy, and I would especially enjoy funny tv or movies that don't make me have to pause the show to deal with the horrendous cringe moments. I love dark comedy, but to me embarrassment + sadness + jokes does not equate. Thinking of Four Seasons, which I watched recently.
I also don't love the tendency to have a kind of ironic or meta narrative, to me it comes across as trying too hard. Isn't anyone capable of just making something outright hilarious??
“I also don't love the tendency to have a kind of ironic or meta narrative, to me it comes across as trying too hard. Isn't anyone capable of just making something outright hilarious??”
That’s down to fear of genuine vulnerability. The only way most men can relate to each other (especially younger ones) is by constantly putting themselves and each other down and never taking anything too seriously. Take it from someone who’s been through all of that for the last 12 years of my life at least.
A film comedy that depicted close male friendship is " The Big Lebowski" ❤️. The classic book "Bowling 🎳 alone" addressed the friend deficient 👞♂️ man . Perhaps meet-up groups dedicated to male only activities might help.
Men on this thread — what kinds of same-sex friendships do you have? Mine are mediated by women either in my life or in my male friends’ lives — note that I am heterosexual so I can’t speak for the experience of gay men. I cannot think of any men I am friends with who are free simply to make plans, take time , etc without checking in with partners first
28M. Since becoming a lot more socially active 2 years ago, I have dozens of male (and female) acquaintances but few I would really call friends. I usually talk about lighter things when I'm with them, so we haven't really gotten deep (or even extended) conversations so far. I usually text (and rarely call) acquaintances for functional things, rather than really discussing what we're struggling with. I'm trying to organize more parties and get-togethers to deepen these relationships, but I kinda resent how much work it is. But I do want to make this summer the best!!
My current closest friend is a 60 year old woman who is my next door neighbor. I had to cut off the one close male friend I had last year due to him acting scary. None of my friendships are mediated by women (I'm single).
I'm still relatively young (30) and I have a couple of close male friends (1 from college, 3-4 from high school). We live all over the country though so we mostly keep up through calls and text but I try to at least visit a couple of them during the year. I will say that being in a committed relationship for the last three years has thrown off a bit of my routine in terms of calling my friends as my weekends are considerably more busy and involved. It sucks when I have an hour or two to chat before rushing out to do something and they're busy.
I have two close friends who don’t have anything to do with couplehood. I have another fairly close group that I’ve met through an online group that meets twice a month on Zoom. I also have a pretty tight knit group of high school friends on a group text. Recently one of the members’ husband died of cancer. The rest of us put together a nice memorial gift for her to display jn her home. It was really touching for all of us.
I’m 26 and I probably have at most 10 close friends from every stage of my life combined. I thought I’d lost all but three of them by being a POS on social media when I was a teenager, but I got invited back to an informal reunion in the town where we went to grade school recently and it went all right. Of course, none of these friends live anywhere near me right now, but at least I’m moving to a place where traveling to see them won’t be as difficult.
Yes, that is the deal with being in a relationship, especially if there are kids. You can't just do whatever you want whenever you want like you could when you were single. And usually the women make most of the plans, I think because then woman often rejects the man's ideas so the man just gives up and does what she says.
I'm fortunate to have a decent number, but they all go back to college and before. Can be very hard to make new adult friends, which would be nice as none of my old friends live in the same town as me. It's like a man isn't supposed to need or want friends, he's simply supposed to have them.
Mine are based around writers groups at this point. Nothing too deep. Moving and health issues made me lose a lot of friends I thought were close. None have been mediated by my wife but she's very introverted, an RPG gamer and reader. She's a social worker too so her job is dealing with people all day.
I've never once thought of my friendships in these terms but just to add to the answers: For me (38M), i guess 2 of the ~8 truly-active male friendships in my life are with unpartnered/single men. But with all 6 of the others, the root reality that they have to make sure time for phone calls or beers or whatever work for a family schedule has never once felt like what I'd call 'mediation.' None of my friends have partners who police their social calendars in any way. All of my partnered friends are diligent about maintaining a healthy and respectful balance with their partners in regard to domestic labor, ensuring that each of them has a fair share of 'going out with my friends and leaving you home' time, etc. And also, each of those partners feel more like family to me than like accessories to my male friendships -- so often things turn into group hangs with everybody, partners and kids included.
The best depiction of male friendship is in A Million Little Pieces.
That is where I saw male friendship written beautifully, without flippancy or too much whimsy. It was grounded, emotive, humorous, and serious all at the same time.
I think we place far too much pressure on male friendships to be something more. I think brotherhood is a complex and meaningful thing, and when men are depicted as bumbling idiots who can't make friends, it's insulting. It also implies that all men are socially inept, and that just isn't true.
I have been thinking about this a lot recently, this may be conspiratorial, but I wonder if (via social media and techo/hyper capitalism ) the rising loneliness among men lends itself to young men radicalizing easier than if they had more social support. Radicalized young men are great for fascism.
Reading this makes me curious if you've seen A Real Pain as well, and if so whether/how it might fit into or expand the frame of your observations here. The male-friendship-seeking/maintaining aspect of the story is very much background rather than foreground, and it's hyper-individualized to the Caulkin character rather than aiming wider/going societal with it, but I found myself flashing to a few scenes from it at various points in this piece all the same. And the Caulkin character is certainly representative of A Type of Guy even if Eisenberg is clearly working in super specific 1:1 context where group dynamics are adjacent but not centered.
i think you just don’t get that style of comedy & that’s okay lol u don’t need to turn it into how it’s like.. proof of how everyone wants to kill themselves.
u don’t get it that’s fine. i just came from a theater where everyone was dying laughing the whole time. best theater experience i’ve had in yrs.
hey have u ever seen bozo dubbed over. bozo dubbed over and there’s spaces in between each of the words. u should watch it.
Actually, the men’s relationship in Christian covenant community are outstanding. They have male bonding at the best level and are not awkward in the slightest. Christian community answers most of the culture conundrums that exist today. Visit yeslord.com for an example.
Unfortunately the choice of decent movies with stories of men having successful and fulfilling lives is sadly lacking. Perhaps it’s the type of perspective the Hollywood class has about less worthy lives then they lead?
I think the only modern depiction of male friendship with joy and acceptance at its core is Jackass. And I think that says a whole lot
Unfortunately for male friendships and loneliness there is little more off-putting than the man with poor social skills, and I use the term social skills to refer to their ability to be a friend to men or women. Lots of men have poor social skills with women, but do just fine as friends to other men. Men who lack the skills with either (the cringy, often desperate guys), are the ones everyone wants to stay away from. I don't know, maybe it's adaptive evolution that we are most turned off by the male social maladapt.
It's never a permanent sentence of course. Social skills are SKILLS. They are learned! But with our society increasingly losing its social capital, and more of our lives dominated by isolationist activities like video content, video games, or doom scrolling the number of men we're producing with no social skills keeps rising, and the opportunities they have to practice and develop good social skills is falling.
I've heard that "Women need a reason to have sex. Men just need an opportunity." I feel it's the inverse for friendship.
I organize a sports meetup, and something that's been happening recently is that some women will just sit and chat while watching the games (the meetup is majority male). They say it's an important social outlet. Reminds me of church where the attendance is largely older women who want community (amongst other reasons). Also, I've heard from a few (not many!) women in my life that they "could never live alone". I've never heard that from a guy.
"Men need a reason to to have friendship. Women just need an opportunity." 🤷♂️
Yes, men need an activity. Women can just talk on the phone, but with men there needs to be some pretense, even if it's just going to a bar. Watching sports is a good pretense.
I'd love more comedy, and I would especially enjoy funny tv or movies that don't make me have to pause the show to deal with the horrendous cringe moments. I love dark comedy, but to me embarrassment + sadness + jokes does not equate. Thinking of Four Seasons, which I watched recently.
I also don't love the tendency to have a kind of ironic or meta narrative, to me it comes across as trying too hard. Isn't anyone capable of just making something outright hilarious??
I would like to simply have a laugh and not think too much about it!
“I also don't love the tendency to have a kind of ironic or meta narrative, to me it comes across as trying too hard. Isn't anyone capable of just making something outright hilarious??”
That’s down to fear of genuine vulnerability. The only way most men can relate to each other (especially younger ones) is by constantly putting themselves and each other down and never taking anything too seriously. Take it from someone who’s been through all of that for the last 12 years of my life at least.
A film comedy that depicted close male friendship is " The Big Lebowski" ❤️. The classic book "Bowling 🎳 alone" addressed the friend deficient 👞♂️ man . Perhaps meet-up groups dedicated to male only activities might help.
Another related movie 🎥🍿, " I love 💓 you man !"
I always assumed my social shortcomings were because of my autism. Do neurotypical men struggle with this too?
Yes.
Men on this thread — what kinds of same-sex friendships do you have? Mine are mediated by women either in my life or in my male friends’ lives — note that I am heterosexual so I can’t speak for the experience of gay men. I cannot think of any men I am friends with who are free simply to make plans, take time , etc without checking in with partners first
28M. Since becoming a lot more socially active 2 years ago, I have dozens of male (and female) acquaintances but few I would really call friends. I usually talk about lighter things when I'm with them, so we haven't really gotten deep (or even extended) conversations so far. I usually text (and rarely call) acquaintances for functional things, rather than really discussing what we're struggling with. I'm trying to organize more parties and get-togethers to deepen these relationships, but I kinda resent how much work it is. But I do want to make this summer the best!!
My current closest friend is a 60 year old woman who is my next door neighbor. I had to cut off the one close male friend I had last year due to him acting scary. None of my friendships are mediated by women (I'm single).
I'm still relatively young (30) and I have a couple of close male friends (1 from college, 3-4 from high school). We live all over the country though so we mostly keep up through calls and text but I try to at least visit a couple of them during the year. I will say that being in a committed relationship for the last three years has thrown off a bit of my routine in terms of calling my friends as my weekends are considerably more busy and involved. It sucks when I have an hour or two to chat before rushing out to do something and they're busy.
I have two close friends who don’t have anything to do with couplehood. I have another fairly close group that I’ve met through an online group that meets twice a month on Zoom. I also have a pretty tight knit group of high school friends on a group text. Recently one of the members’ husband died of cancer. The rest of us put together a nice memorial gift for her to display jn her home. It was really touching for all of us.
I’m 26 and I probably have at most 10 close friends from every stage of my life combined. I thought I’d lost all but three of them by being a POS on social media when I was a teenager, but I got invited back to an informal reunion in the town where we went to grade school recently and it went all right. Of course, none of these friends live anywhere near me right now, but at least I’m moving to a place where traveling to see them won’t be as difficult.
Yes, that is the deal with being in a relationship, especially if there are kids. You can't just do whatever you want whenever you want like you could when you were single. And usually the women make most of the plans, I think because then woman often rejects the man's ideas so the man just gives up and does what she says.
I'm fortunate to have a decent number, but they all go back to college and before. Can be very hard to make new adult friends, which would be nice as none of my old friends live in the same town as me. It's like a man isn't supposed to need or want friends, he's simply supposed to have them.
Mine are based around writers groups at this point. Nothing too deep. Moving and health issues made me lose a lot of friends I thought were close. None have been mediated by my wife but she's very introverted, an RPG gamer and reader. She's a social worker too so her job is dealing with people all day.
I've never once thought of my friendships in these terms but just to add to the answers: For me (38M), i guess 2 of the ~8 truly-active male friendships in my life are with unpartnered/single men. But with all 6 of the others, the root reality that they have to make sure time for phone calls or beers or whatever work for a family schedule has never once felt like what I'd call 'mediation.' None of my friends have partners who police their social calendars in any way. All of my partnered friends are diligent about maintaining a healthy and respectful balance with their partners in regard to domestic labor, ensuring that each of them has a fair share of 'going out with my friends and leaving you home' time, etc. And also, each of those partners feel more like family to me than like accessories to my male friendships -- so often things turn into group hangs with everybody, partners and kids included.
The best depiction of male friendship is in A Million Little Pieces.
That is where I saw male friendship written beautifully, without flippancy or too much whimsy. It was grounded, emotive, humorous, and serious all at the same time.
I think we place far too much pressure on male friendships to be something more. I think brotherhood is a complex and meaningful thing, and when men are depicted as bumbling idiots who can't make friends, it's insulting. It also implies that all men are socially inept, and that just isn't true.
I have been thinking about this a lot recently, this may be conspiratorial, but I wonder if (via social media and techo/hyper capitalism ) the rising loneliness among men lends itself to young men radicalizing easier than if they had more social support. Radicalized young men are great for fascism.
[whispering to men] go to church
Reading this makes me curious if you've seen A Real Pain as well, and if so whether/how it might fit into or expand the frame of your observations here. The male-friendship-seeking/maintaining aspect of the story is very much background rather than foreground, and it's hyper-individualized to the Caulkin character rather than aiming wider/going societal with it, but I found myself flashing to a few scenes from it at various points in this piece all the same. And the Caulkin character is certainly representative of A Type of Guy even if Eisenberg is clearly working in super specific 1:1 context where group dynamics are adjacent but not centered.
i think you just don’t get that style of comedy & that’s okay lol u don’t need to turn it into how it’s like.. proof of how everyone wants to kill themselves.
u don’t get it that’s fine. i just came from a theater where everyone was dying laughing the whole time. best theater experience i’ve had in yrs.
hey have u ever seen bozo dubbed over. bozo dubbed over and there’s spaces in between each of the words. u should watch it.
> If the story in Friendship real life,
"were real life"
> remedying his friendship with Craig.
"with Austin"
You know, you could just privately message me these typos.
Sorry, that didn't occur to me at all 😅
Actually, the men’s relationship in Christian covenant community are outstanding. They have male bonding at the best level and are not awkward in the slightest. Christian community answers most of the culture conundrums that exist today. Visit yeslord.com for an example.
but what if i'm gay
Unfortunately the choice of decent movies with stories of men having successful and fulfilling lives is sadly lacking. Perhaps it’s the type of perspective the Hollywood class has about less worthy lives then they lead?
"Decent and fulfilling lives" = no plot.