While I agree with you that kindness to prospective partners is unequivocally the most important prerequisite for a relationship, romantic or otherwise, I think it is important not to dismiss or ignore the effect of status on relationships. I live in the South, and yeah, a plumber pulling good money would not find their profession a barrier to dating around here. But there's bound to be people even here that would not be interested in a plumber, and I think there are definitely entire cities where that population is larger proportionately. We can talk all day about how kindness is key, but I fear that some of that kindness should be reserved for men struggling to cope with the effect of status on dating. They aren't hallucinating the existence of a relationship between desirability and status, no matter how much more likely a lack of kindness is an overriding factor.
Yes, if somehow there was a beautiful woman with low status, men would be happy to date her. In practice this never happens because women derive much of their status from their beauty, but it's the beauty the guys are after. Guys would brag about dating a stripper, but handsome plumber is going to have a much tougher time.
You really think a woman with a college degree would be willing to date a plumber? I'm not so sure, even if he made more money than her and was nice to her.
Zackly. That woman slicing cheese at the Stop-N-Shop would think she'd won the lottery. Some Grievance Studies grad would think he was seriously down-market and socially embarrassing, unless he could be leveraged in some way. A woman (any woman) in Williston, ca. 2012, would think he was a pauper, unless he had a house to live in or something.
That's my instinct. What looks are to men, status is to women. For whatever reason, blue collar workers are considered to be lower status. A guy with options won't date an unattractive woman and a woman with options won't date a plumber. I suppose an unattractive woman with a college degree would consider it if she were desperate.
Can't speak for all women or what culture you're speaking from, but as a college educated woman I'd totally date a plumber (if I was attracted to him and we shared similar interests). I think trade jobs are a noble skill, but then again I'm speaking as someone who values passion, drive and financial literacy over 'status,' so white collar vs blue collar is irrelevant to me. Just some perspective. That being said, I think one of the points Magdalene is making is that women these days often don't even have the option of weighing pros and cons of multiple suitors (this isn't The Bachelorette! lmao), because men are not treating them with respect or kindness to begin with. It's down to the wire.
"On an immediate level, there are many men for whom a woman’s niceness is entirely secondary: even if she is unkind to him, his attraction to her will not wane."
You've never seen this same situation with women? While I agree that we all need to be nice to each other and that it is important for gender relations and society at large, I have to disagree that just being nice is enough for guys.
I've been attracted to women that were awful to me, and nice to me. I've seen the same with friends that are women. Sometimes it is a psychological issue where someone wants to be treated badly, but most of the time it isn't. The truth is that it doesn't matter if you're nice or not. You can be a nice guy/girl (and I mean an actually nice person here) and not be able to attract a partner, and you can be an asshole and still not be able to attract a partner. I know some real misogynists who get laid plenty and I know decent dudes who have never had trouble with women.
I really feel like this a relic of Christian society that we can't see things in any other terms besides nice/not nice, good/bad etc. The Abrahamic religions have one God and therefore one way of acting morally. People can't admit that they're attracted to anything else besides the pure, morally righteous person and have to deflect even when the evidence is all around them to the contrary. Women and men fall for bad people literally all the time.
Old novels like Dracula and Nosferatu at least had the insight to recognize that sometimes the bad person can be tempting, sometimes they just have something that the "good" person doesn't. Also, Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray were popular for a reason! Obviously those books are fantasy, and no one actually wants to be treated like that. But something in them is still true, and we would be better off analyzing that instead of denying it entirely.
That picture throws me for a loop. They do seem to be together. Can we at least admit that such a thing is extremely unusual? Not impossible though. There are obvious things, like the guy is rich (they appear to be in college, so maybe his family is rich), or maybe he's a celebrity that I'm not familiar with. But also possible that somehow this sclhub is actually brimming with confidence, despite everything the world has probably thrown at him. He may be hilarious, the life of the party. He may be a celebrity on that campus. I have so many questions. He was competing with many other dudes for that girl and somehow he won. Would love to know more.
Incidentally, that is the real thing the pickup artists are teaching: confidence. Or at least how to mimic confidence, which could turn into real confidence once it starts working. It goes back to status, but how does one measure status? Mostly if someone acts like they have high status, other people will believe it, lacking data to confirm or deny the basis of said status. But then if a guy walks into a room and everyone cheers for him, is talking about him, his status will be soaring. That's why being a rock star or celebrity is the highest status you can have.
if you think this is tough, try navigating all this while on the autism spectrum. honestly i don't think that gets discussed enough when it comes to dating and relationships
Great article and I'm 10000% on board with your message! Kindness is so important.
I do have thoughts about this section:
"No, women do not like what other men might perceive to be as a “nice guy” who doesn’t stand up for himself. Women do not like guys who think of themselves as “nice guys” but are actually exclusively wielding their so-called kindness for sex and then become hostile to women when they don’t receive it..."
This isn’t really describing a nice guy. I totally get what you mean, but I think calling these examples “nice guys” muddies the point, especially when the argument is that it’s good to be nice! The first example sounds more like a doormat or people-pleaser, which isn’t the same thing as being nice. The second is someone using niceness as a transaction for sex, which is anything but nice. Could these be reframed as a doormat or a transaction-seeker, rather than lumping them under “nice guy.” Maybe if we introduce more respectful way of talking about truly nice guys, we'll get a little more traction. The term "nice guy" has nearly become a dirty word for this reason and I think that's unfortunate. Thoughts?
While I agree with you that kindness to prospective partners is unequivocally the most important prerequisite for a relationship, romantic or otherwise, I think it is important not to dismiss or ignore the effect of status on relationships. I live in the South, and yeah, a plumber pulling good money would not find their profession a barrier to dating around here. But there's bound to be people even here that would not be interested in a plumber, and I think there are definitely entire cities where that population is larger proportionately. We can talk all day about how kindness is key, but I fear that some of that kindness should be reserved for men struggling to cope with the effect of status on dating. They aren't hallucinating the existence of a relationship between desirability and status, no matter how much more likely a lack of kindness is an overriding factor.
Yes, if somehow there was a beautiful woman with low status, men would be happy to date her. In practice this never happens because women derive much of their status from their beauty, but it's the beauty the guys are after. Guys would brag about dating a stripper, but handsome plumber is going to have a much tougher time.
You really think a woman with a college degree would be willing to date a plumber? I'm not so sure, even if he made more money than her and was nice to her.
Zackly. That woman slicing cheese at the Stop-N-Shop would think she'd won the lottery. Some Grievance Studies grad would think he was seriously down-market and socially embarrassing, unless he could be leveraged in some way. A woman (any woman) in Williston, ca. 2012, would think he was a pauper, unless he had a house to live in or something.
That's my instinct. What looks are to men, status is to women. For whatever reason, blue collar workers are considered to be lower status. A guy with options won't date an unattractive woman and a woman with options won't date a plumber. I suppose an unattractive woman with a college degree would consider it if she were desperate.
Can't speak for all women or what culture you're speaking from, but as a college educated woman I'd totally date a plumber (if I was attracted to him and we shared similar interests). I think trade jobs are a noble skill, but then again I'm speaking as someone who values passion, drive and financial literacy over 'status,' so white collar vs blue collar is irrelevant to me. Just some perspective. That being said, I think one of the points Magdalene is making is that women these days often don't even have the option of weighing pros and cons of multiple suitors (this isn't The Bachelorette! lmao), because men are not treating them with respect or kindness to begin with. It's down to the wire.
"On an immediate level, there are many men for whom a woman’s niceness is entirely secondary: even if she is unkind to him, his attraction to her will not wane."
You've never seen this same situation with women? While I agree that we all need to be nice to each other and that it is important for gender relations and society at large, I have to disagree that just being nice is enough for guys.
I've been attracted to women that were awful to me, and nice to me. I've seen the same with friends that are women. Sometimes it is a psychological issue where someone wants to be treated badly, but most of the time it isn't. The truth is that it doesn't matter if you're nice or not. You can be a nice guy/girl (and I mean an actually nice person here) and not be able to attract a partner, and you can be an asshole and still not be able to attract a partner. I know some real misogynists who get laid plenty and I know decent dudes who have never had trouble with women.
I really feel like this a relic of Christian society that we can't see things in any other terms besides nice/not nice, good/bad etc. The Abrahamic religions have one God and therefore one way of acting morally. People can't admit that they're attracted to anything else besides the pure, morally righteous person and have to deflect even when the evidence is all around them to the contrary. Women and men fall for bad people literally all the time.
Old novels like Dracula and Nosferatu at least had the insight to recognize that sometimes the bad person can be tempting, sometimes they just have something that the "good" person doesn't. Also, Twilight and 50 Shades of Gray were popular for a reason! Obviously those books are fantasy, and no one actually wants to be treated like that. But something in them is still true, and we would be better off analyzing that instead of denying it entirely.
That picture throws me for a loop. They do seem to be together. Can we at least admit that such a thing is extremely unusual? Not impossible though. There are obvious things, like the guy is rich (they appear to be in college, so maybe his family is rich), or maybe he's a celebrity that I'm not familiar with. But also possible that somehow this sclhub is actually brimming with confidence, despite everything the world has probably thrown at him. He may be hilarious, the life of the party. He may be a celebrity on that campus. I have so many questions. He was competing with many other dudes for that girl and somehow he won. Would love to know more.
Incidentally, that is the real thing the pickup artists are teaching: confidence. Or at least how to mimic confidence, which could turn into real confidence once it starts working. It goes back to status, but how does one measure status? Mostly if someone acts like they have high status, other people will believe it, lacking data to confirm or deny the basis of said status. But then if a guy walks into a room and everyone cheers for him, is talking about him, his status will be soaring. That's why being a rock star or celebrity is the highest status you can have.
if you think this is tough, try navigating all this while on the autism spectrum. honestly i don't think that gets discussed enough when it comes to dating and relationships
Great article and I'm 10000% on board with your message! Kindness is so important.
I do have thoughts about this section:
"No, women do not like what other men might perceive to be as a “nice guy” who doesn’t stand up for himself. Women do not like guys who think of themselves as “nice guys” but are actually exclusively wielding their so-called kindness for sex and then become hostile to women when they don’t receive it..."
This isn’t really describing a nice guy. I totally get what you mean, but I think calling these examples “nice guys” muddies the point, especially when the argument is that it’s good to be nice! The first example sounds more like a doormat or people-pleaser, which isn’t the same thing as being nice. The second is someone using niceness as a transaction for sex, which is anything but nice. Could these be reframed as a doormat or a transaction-seeker, rather than lumping them under “nice guy.” Maybe if we introduce more respectful way of talking about truly nice guys, we'll get a little more traction. The term "nice guy" has nearly become a dirty word for this reason and I think that's unfortunate. Thoughts?